Hey khon! It's nice to see another face around here. Anyway, I'm curious as to how you got the name for "Europe". ܐܘܪܝܦܝ? Really? In almost all languages, the ending is usually -ropa/-rofa (ܪܘܦܐ-). I wasn't really happy with "ܝܘܐܪܘܦܐ," but "ܐܘܪܝܦܝ" just sounds funny. --3345345335534 14:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
If you don't mind me asking, which dictionary do you use? We have to be skeptical about certain dictionaries (and organizations) claiming one thing to be true because there is almost always something else claiming otherwise. You mentioned something about the word being reintroduced by this organization. Are you sure that this word was previously being used as the sole name of the continent? Where does the word come from exactly, from the organization itself? --3345345335534 00:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Please, could you tranlate this article onto the language of this Wikipedia? Thanks for your help. --Parolu Esperanto 19:09, 10 ܟܢܘܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2007 (UTC)
Done! --Assyria 90 21:54, 24 ܟܢܘܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2007 (UTC)
I assume you're talking about Syame (ܝܘܡܐ - ܝܘܡ̈ܐ). I normally just cut-and-paste from anywhere else, but I've just added it to the edit tools at the bottom of the edit page (below the summary box and save button, underneath the letters of the alphabet). You can click on it now, it looks like a box just by itself. I hope this helps. --3345345335534 23:54, 22 ܟܢܘܢ ܬܪܝܢܐ 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea why it's not as active. Personally, I'm holding off until my grammar in the written language gets better (I used to write how I speak, but I realized that doesn't work...) so I haven't been creating too many new articles lately. --3345345335534 03:13, 28 ܟܢܘܢ ܬܪܝܢܐ 2008 (UTC)
Hello Assyria 90 ! I am wondering if you could help me translate a very short stub version of 1 or 2 sentences of this article for the ܐܪܡܝܐ wikipedia? Thank you very much for any help you could provide. I hope to hear from you. Yours, Amarya Julyeta 17:32, 28 ܟܢܘܢ ܬܪܝܢܐ 2008 (UTC)
Thanks so much for the initial article.
Are you planning to expand it a little bit more?
AmayraJulyeta 19:28, 6 ܐܕܪ 2008 (UTC)
Sorry akhee, you're absolutely right. I was translating the article on the English Wikipedia (w:Syriac (disambiguation)) and I wasn't paying attention to the use of the word "ܥܡܐ." As for creating an article to represent all Syriac-Christians, I say go for it. I've personally been steering clear of all religious/ethnic articles (especially ones that have to do with us). I just think there are more deserving articles which haven't been created yet. The article on Mar Dinkha was created before the article on God, for crying out loud. --3345345335534 01:46, 8 ܫܒܛ 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. But could you give an example in assyrian script of how to write with the plural marker? I can't type assyrian on my pc, just copy-paste individual letters. --Soman 21:38, 24
ܐܕܪ 2008 (UTC)
Of course. You just write the word and where you want the plura mark you enter "Shift+I", ܓܒ̈ܐ.--Assyria 90 23:06, 27 ܐܕܪ 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks so much :)
- If you could add some extra text, that would be wonderful
- Thanks again, Assyria 90!!!
- Yours, AmayraJulyeta 23:12, 9 ܐܕܪ 2008 (UTC)
Hey bro, where did you get this word from? --3345345335534 01:36, 16 ܢܝܣܢ 2008 (UTC)
Abna is "stone" or "rock" as in the material (like a substance, similar to milk, water, wood, etc.). Kepa is a rock, or a piece of rock (not the uncountable substance). Kepa is pretty much a word that can only be used in a dictionary, it's not very easy (or useful) to write an encyclopedic article on it. :) ܒܫܝܢܐ ܐܚܘܢܝ. --3345345335534 01:22, 17 ܢܝܣܢ 2008 (UTC)
Hey bro, notice the spelling of "ܡܘܣܝܩܝ"? You know how there's no "ܩ" sound in Greek? This is what I was talking about on the talk page for Turkey. The Greek spelling is "μουσική", with a "κ" (Kappa). If it was with a "χ" (Chi), then it would be correct to spell it like "ܡܘܣܝܟܝ". It's because the two letters make almost the same sound in Ancient Greek, except Chi has an extra burst of air when you pronounce it (in other words, it's "aspirated"). Since they're different letters, changing them could change the word all together, so that's why they're represented by Kaph and Qoph instead of just Kaph.
Do you understand why I write words the way I do now? It's not my system, it's an ancient one. :) --3345345335534 15:06, 10 ܚܙܝܪܢ 2008 (UTC)
- I see what you're saying bro, but we only say "Turkiya" today because of influence of other languages instead of our original language. It's not that much of a phonetic alphabet, it used to be back in the day when it was standardized (in Edessa), but the modern dialects have changed too much. When I first started writing in this Wikipedia, I didn't know a thing about the old language. I just wrote in my modern Eastern dialect, so I made plenty of mistakes. So now I'm trying to write more in the old language (learning slowly), and I can understand 90% of what you type now in your Western dialect (since the Western dialect is closer to the old language). As for shutting this wiki down, I haven't heard anything to suggest that (nobody's told me anything). I think if it was being shut down, we would know. Where did you hear that from?
Anyway on another subject, how do you say "speak" (like a language) in your modern Western dialect? Is it "ܨܘܬ", "ܗܡܙܡ", or something else? --3345345335534 16:06, 11 ܚܙܝܪܢ 2008 (UTC)
Request for Help, pleaseEdit
Greetings Assyria 90,
Nice to meet you.
Could you kindly help me translate these passages into the most unique and wonderful Modern Eastern Aramaic language? Please.
- "Jesus Christ, the Word who became flesh, died on the cross for the redemption of sinners, resurrected on the third day and ascended to heaven. He is the only saviour of mankind, the Creator of the heavens and earth, and the only true God".
- (Based on: 1 Timothy 3:16, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Acts 4:12)
- "The Holy Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, is inspired by God, the only scriptural truth, and the standard for Christian living".
- (Based on: 2 Timothy 3:16)
- "Salvation is given by the grace of God through faith. Believers must rely on the Holy Spirit to pursue holiness, to honour God, and to love humanity".
- (Based on: Ephesians 2:8)
Your help would be very Gratefully Appreciated, Thankyou very much. --Jose77 10:00, 11 ܚܙܝܪܢ 2008 (UTC)
- Greetings Yahanun,
- The above passages are not direct quotations from the Bible, however they are based upon Bible verses (ie. they have biblical support). I have included the Bible verses in which the passages are based upon. Hopefully this will make your translation work a lot easier.
- Yours Sincerely, --Jose77 01:05, 13 ܚܙܝܪܢ 2008 (UTC)
- Thankyou very much for your help and effort!
- I am very Grateful.
- I understand that it is more difficult to translate into the Classical Syriac language. Instead, could you help me translate those passages into the Modern Eastern Aramaic language? (ie. the language which you currently speak.)
- This would make it a lot easier for you to translate and it would also be more relevant in this present day world. Thanks in advance.
(Apologies for my mistake.) --Jose77 06:02, 14 ܚܙܝܪܢ 2008 (UTC)
To become an admin, follow the steps outlined here. Basically, being an admin gives you certain rights regular users don't have, like being able to protect/delete articles, blocking users, and so on. --3345345335534 01:48, 4 ܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and one more thing bro: can you try to make an effort to follow my version of transliterating things? Please? Can you do it for me? :) Can we spell "Italy" like ܐܝܛܠܝܐ (like how it is in the Bible) instead of "ܐܝܬܠܝܐ" so that it's not pronounced like "Ithalia"? --3345345335534 01:55, 4 ܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2008 (UTC)
I have a question for you: does the Western dialect use the word "ܩܐ" to mean "for?" --3345345335534 15:12, 5 ܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2008 (UTC)
What's your reasoning for the translation of some words a certain way, but other words another way? I went over this before bro, it's not my system. It was the only way to transliterate Ancient Greek:
The system then worked its way into other non-Semitic languages, like Latin (hence "ܐܝܛܠܝܐ"). It's just the way we translate things, I don't know about your dialect, but we pronounce "ܐܝܛܠܝܐ" the way it's spelled: with a "ܛ". Same with "ܩܠܝܕܐ" which was a Κ in Greek originally. So maybe we should pronounce "Mexico" with a qoph instead of a kaph.
So here's my reasoning: that system of spelling goes back thousands of years and it's found everywhere in all our ancient borrowings, so we can't change it. My job then is to make sure that we're consistent in transliterating things a certain way, so in other words we should use the old system. I'll tell you another reason for using that system: Hebrew uses the exact same method I use, and Hebrew is much much closer to our language than Arabic is. I wouldn't even take the Arabic spelling into consideration, to be honest. Their system is flawed in my opinion, and it doesn't help that our language is becoming more and more influenced by Arabic. Again, I would only use the Arabic spelling if it were the exact same as the Hebrew spelling. --334a 01:24, 13 ܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2008 (UTC)
Hey bro, most of those articles were actually created by me. When I first started, there were around 100 articles (maybe less). I don't know about you, but I was never taught the old ("written") language and I would just write in my modern dialect, exactly as I heard and spoke it. So I spelled "ܠܫܢܐ" like "ܠܝܫܢܐ" because that's how I pronounced it. As time went on, I realized that it doesn't work out so well, so I started learning and writing the old way. I'm still not perfect at it but I'm getting better, so I've kind of held off on making massive numbers of new articles until I tweak the old ones until I'm fully comfortable with writing. If you ever went back to my old edits, it's embarassing (like here), and there are still a few of my old articles floating around.
There's also the matter of it being a really old language, so some of the vocabulary isn't as up to date with modern languages. So that's my reason for not being as active as I would like to be. For countries, I've done the Middle East, Europe, and parts of North Africa, but I stopped there. I still have to work out some of the spellings in the country template which I don't think are right and such.
I'm not sure where everybody else is though, there are two other administrators that I haven't seen active for quite some time (here). Other than that, it's up to us to actually spread the word around about this wiki so people actually take part. --334a 02:10, 29 ܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2008 (UTC)
Shlama khon, I hope you're doing well over the holidays. :)
I have a favour to ask: would you mind translating the following sentences to your Western dialect? Both in the alphabet and with a rough transcription, please.
- I write
- I do write
- I am writing
- I wrote
- I was writing
- I have written
- I had written
- I will have written
- I will write
- He/she is (ܝܐ?)
I'm just trying to see what the differences between the dialects are. In the Eastern dialect, for "I write" we say "kethwin" for a man and "kethwan" for a woman, and for "I wrote", it's "kthiw li", but the last one isn't in Classical Syriac (it's actually influenced by Persian, so I don't think your dialect has it). --334a 03:55, 30 ܟܢܘܢ ܩܕܝܡ 2008 (UTC)
- ܬܘܕܝ ܣܓܝ ܐܚܘܢܝ! --334a 23:10, 3 ܫܒܛ 2009 (UTC)
Like it or not, our language is similar to both Arabic and Hebrew, so I'd say it's fairly logical that our writing would follow one or both of their ways of writing. If you're unwilling to use the older way of spelling, then prepare to say "ܐܝܬܠܝܐ" instead of "ܐܝܛܠܝܐ", or "ܟܠܝܕܐ" instead of "ܩܠܝܕܐ", or "ܬܝܡܐ" instead of "ܛܝܡܐ", and so on, because those words (which we use even in the modern dialects) use that way of spelling/pronouncing. So, answer me this: why is it that ܩܢܕܐ is illogical but ܐܝܛܠܝܐ is perfectly okay? --334a 00:36, 20 ܫܒܛ 2009 (UTC)
- Go to http://www.aifoundations.org/peshitta/acts.html, scroll down to ܦܪܟܣܣ ܕܫܠܝ̈ܚܐ ܝܚ, and read verse 2 (Acts 18:2):ܘܶܐܫܟ݁ܰܚ ܬ݁ܰܡܳܢ ܓ݁ܰܒ݂ܪܳܐ ܚܰܕ݂ ܝܺܗܽܘܕ݂ܳܝܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܫܡܶܗ ܗܘܳܐ ܐܰܩܶܠܳܘܣ ܕ݁ܺܐܝܬ݂ܰܘܗ݈ܝ ܗ݈ܘܳܐ ܡܶܢ ܦ݁ܳܢܛܳܘܣ ܐܰܬ݂ܪܳܐ ܕ݁ܒ݂ܶܗ ܒ݁ܗܰܘ ܙܰܒ݂ܢܳܐ ܐܶܬ݂ܳܐ ܗ݈ܘܳܐ ܡܶܢ ܐܰܬ݂ܪܳܐ ܕ݁ܺܐܝܛܰܠܺܝܰܐ ܗ݈ܘ ܘܰܦ݁ܪܺܝܣܩܺܠܰܐ ܐܰܢ݈ܬ݁ܬ݂ܶܗ ܡܶܛܽܠ ܕ݁ܰܦ݂ܩܰܕ݂ ܗ݈ܘܳܐ ܩܠܰܘܕ݂ܺܝܳܘܣ ܩܶܣܰܪ ܕ݁ܢܶܦ݁ܩܽܘܢ ܟ݁ܽܠܗܽܘܢ ܝܺܗܽܘܕ݂ܳܝܶܐ ܡܶܢ ܪܽܗ݈ܘܡܺܐ ܘܶܐܬ݂ܩܰܪܰܒ݂ ܠܘܳܬ݂ܗܽܘܢ. You'll see the Greek name Pontos has a teth, and the Latin names Italia and Priscilla have a teth and a qoph. The current spelling of "Italia" is thousands of years old which, I think, must account for something. Like I've said before, it's not my method but an ancient (and still valid) one as seen in this passage from the Bible. The entire New Testament is absolutely saturated with this method of spelling, any deviation from it deviates from standard Syriac transliteration. --334a 16:17, 20 ܫܒܛ 2009 (UTC)
as an active user, i would need your support here.ܐܢ ܒܣܡܐ ܠܘܟ
- ܬܘܕܝ--Basharh 01:57, 10 ܐܕܪ 2009 (UTC)
It was originally decided that this wiki would be written in Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, so I used to write exactly how I speak. I eventually realized that this was very inaccurate and inconsistent, since I never learned the grammar/spelling in school. Also, there are many different dialects and there really is no standard spelling, so that can be troublesome. You speak the western dialect, right? See if you can understand some of my earlier writing: http://arc.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%DC%9D%DC%98%DC%A2&oldid=3540
A while ago I decided to switch to classical (Edessan) Syriac for two reasons: a) it's highly standardized, and b) it's the dialect that most modern speakers share in common (through church liturgy). In my mind, the classical way is the only way to write Syriac correctly.
So that's my reasoning for how to write. As for what to call the language we're writing in (Assyrian, Aramaic, or Syriac), I don't care to discuss. It's a highly political issue that only causes unconstructive arguments. Technically speaking, "Aramaic" is a large family of languages/dialects, "Syriac" is a specific classical eastern Aramaic language, and "Assyrian" either refers to a) Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, a very specific modern eastern Aramaic dialect, or b) Assyrian Akkadian, which isn't Aramaic.
I'm open to having more than one Aramaic language written here (e.g. Jewish Babylonian Aramaic, written in Hebrew script). The Kurdish Wikipedia does the same thing: Kurmanji written in Latin, Sorani written in Arabic, and you can switch from one to the other via a tab. The Serbian Wikipedia has two tabs: Cyrillic and Latin, and the Kazakh Wikipedia has three tabs: Latin, Arabic, and Cyrillic (even though it's one language). Because of that, I don't think we should rename it any time soon. If we did rename it, I think we would have to put it up to a vote (for all three of us) :). ܒܫܝܢܐ, --334a 16:53, 19 ܐܕܪ 2010 (UTC)
- Firstly, on "maintaining this wikipedia on a somewhat Assyrian national level", again, Wikipedia is not the place for spreading political views or propaganda. If someone who calls themselves "Aramean" wanted to start contributing to this wiki, I would welcome that with open arms unless they use this wiki to spread their own ideology or opinions on national titles. Same goes for someone who calls themselves "Assyrian". Wikipedia is about being neutral. I personally believe in the name "Assyrian", but I don't let that keep me from respecting someone's language skills and genuine wanting to help because they happen to call themselves "Aramean."
- Secondly, the "ks" (ܟܣ) represents the affricate ξ in Greek, that's why it's spelled that way. Like I said before, it is not up to us to decide on spelling standards. I simply use the tried and true methods that have been in use for centuries; to deviate now would only create more confusion and inconsistencies. You say our alphabet is a phonetic alphabet. You're right, the alphabet is phonetic based on our language. When we borrow words/names, we tend to "Assyrianize" them. The spelling is based on that Assyrianized word, not on the pronunciation of the native language the word is from. So since our ancestors tended to pronounce a foreign "t" like "ṭ", "Italia" is pronounced and written like "Iṭalia". You have to keep our own phonetic rules in mind: you can't pronounce "Italia" with a regular "t" in a classical Syriac accent. If you did, it would become "Ithalia".
- I understand your cousin's viewpoint and education, but I have to respectfully disagree. Remember, there's already one person in academia who disagrees with your cousin's view that I've asked before: en:User:Garzo on the English Wikipedia. Also, I don't know whether you did this on purpose or not, but you spelled "Mexico" with an alaph at the end, sort of like the spelling was based on modern Western pronunciation. This is not in keeping with the classical pronunciation/spelling, since the Western vowel "a" shifted into an "o" and the "o" merged with the "u". The spelling should be with a waw. Anyway, whether this was a mistake or not, it highlights something: if you are going to use the classical dialect, then you must use classical spelling practices. If you're writing based on any modern dialects, then modern spelling is fine. But we're not. I wouldn't mind having the modern spellings as being redirects and/or alternative spellings, but the main/standard spelling should be classical.
- I'll use the Arabic/Hebrew example again. Arabic contrasts "k" (ﻙ) and "kh" (خ), "t" (ﺕ) and "th" (ﺙ) orthographically as well as phonemically, so it makes sense to have a phonetic-based approach to their spelling since their system is suited for it. Biblical Hebrew and Assyrian, on the other hand, aren't. The letters "k" (ܟ) and "kh" (ܟ), "t" (ܬ) and "th" (ܬ) are allophones, so they're written with the same letter since their pronunciation is predictable in native words. Under your system, it would be impossible to differentiate the last names "Bach" and "Back", since you would spell them both like "ܒܐܟ", while I would spell the first like "ܒܐܟ" and the second like "ܒܐܩ". It creates less ambiguity. --334a 02:01, 25 ܐܕܪ 2010 (UTC)
lol bro, there's no need to go edit warring over a disagreement. We'll just have to keep trying to convince each other using logic and facts. Maybe get User:Basharh into this conversation, too.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. To me, "national level" sounds a lot like politics. "Linguistic level" would have been clearer.
You said ". . . you have to realise that when the foreign Latin and Greek words were translated into Syriac these were not used by our population and therefore a traditional system was set with k -> q and could be used." So I don't misunderstand you again, do you mean that the words were not used by our population on a spoken level and that they were only used in writing? I'm not fully sure what you mean by this sentence.
I don't know about you, but my dialect doesn't have an established pronunciation for "Mexico," we just use the Arabic "Mikseek." The ancient system is phonological, not phonetic. In all languages, there are certain conditions sounds are allowed to appear in, for example:
- In English, you can have "ps" at the end of a word (e.g., caps, laps, traps, etc.), but you cannot have it at the beginning. Words like "psychology" (with a Greek ψ) are pronounced like that in Greek because you can have "ps" at the beginning of a word in Greek (where the word is from) but you can't in English, so English makes it into an "s". Even though English has the sound sequence "ps", rules prevent it from being used everywhere.
- In classical Assyrian, you cannot have "k" and "t" in certain situations, they must be "kh" and "th". "Italia" is one of those situations, so in order not to pronounce it like "Ithalia", it's pronounced like "Iṭalia". Even though Assyrian has the sounds "k" and "t", rules prevent it from being used everywhere.
I was talking about (non-Assyrian) "Bach" as in the last name (like Johann Sebastian Bach), not the word for "in you". If somebody had the (non-Assyrian) last name "Tawa" then I would definitely spell it like ܛܐܘܐ, but of course I would spell the word for "good" like ܛܒܐ. Contrary to what you said, taw is not taw and thaw is not thaw. In linguistics, they would not be described as distinct phonemes, they are allophones of the same phoneme. What that translates to is that they wouldn't be two distinct people, they're two personalities of the same schizophrenic person. One cannot occur in the same place as the other one, their occurrence is completely predictable. The names thaw and khap are actually incorrect since one of the places where they can't occur is in the beginning of a word (the correct names are taw rakikhta and kap rakikhta). They do not change their sound simply because you put a superficial dot underneath the letter, they change their sound because of their deeper position within the word. The dot simply marks that the sound has changed, the dot itself doesn't change the sound.
Most Assyrians denounce "Turqiya" because they're basing the pronunciation on their modern dialect. Most eastern Assyrians would agree that "puma" is the correct pronunciation for "mouth" (ܦܘܡܐ), but they would reject "b'fuma" as the proper pronunciation of "in the mouth" (ܒܦܘܡܐ) because they're basing the pronunciation on their modern dialect (where it's b'puma). But "b'fuma" is the proper way to pronounce "in your mouth" in classical Assyrian. Again, "p" and "f" are allophones of the same phoneme ("schizophrenics"), same rule as "t"/"th" and "k"/"kh".
Take another English example to illustrate phonemes and allophones: (ignore the independent letter "z"), the letter "s" can either have the sound like our simkath or like our zayn in English. In the word "house", it's simkath. In the word "houses", it's zayn. The letter changes depending on its position within the word. The sounds "s" and "z" are two personalities of the same person. --334a 04:00, 27 ܐܕܪ 2010 (UTC)
shlama Assyria 90, sorry for the late answer and welcome back to Wikipedia, I myself am not so active, but I promise I will try my best.--Basharh 05:43, 29 ܐܕܪ 2010 (UTC)